STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Former Arizona Senator Jeff Flake is on the line. He's a Republican who chose not to seek reelection during his own disagreements with the president during Trump's first term. He later served as U.S. ambassador to Turkey in the Biden administration. Ambassador, Senator - whatever we call you - welcome back.
JEFF FLAKE: Thanks for having me on.
INSKEEP: I can't tell if this is another moment when Republicans signal that they are broadly unhappy with the president, but just enough of them ultimately fall into line. What do you think?
FLAKE: Well, we've said this moment has arrived several times, and it hasn't. But I do think this is different now. One, you're beyond the filing deadlines and, in some cases, the primaries, where the president can actually take you out if you're a sitting legislator. And then two, you know, you're looking at the midterms coming up. Headwinds are going to be very strong for Republicans. And many of them, out of self-interest, will want to differ with the president.
INSKEEP: And you also have the reality that some Republicans - I'll try to say this politely. Some Republicans get braver once they decide to retire. They speak out...
FLAKE: You bet.
INSKEEP: ...More once they're defeated or they've decided not to seek reelection. You now have some lawmakers in the position of John Cornyn, who's not out yet. His primary's not...
FLAKE: Right.
INSKEEP: ...Happened yet. But Trump has endorsed his opponent, so Cornyn no longer has anything he can get out of the president, I suppose.
FLAKE: Well, that's right, and it's - but it's deeper than that. Every Republican senator was upset. Well, not everyone, but virtually all of them were upset with the president's endorsement of Paxton. I mean, this is kind of a - you know, a moment where they say - why in the world are you doing this? - when the president had signaled he would endorse John Cornyn. If John Cornyn were to win the primary, there would be no problem winning the general. Now Republicans will have to spend considerable time and resources in Texas when they shouldn't have to. And this is a problem, a big problem for them. And so it's not just the ones that are directly affected, but virtually all the Republicans in the Senate were upset with the president's choice.
INSKEEP: I'm interested if you think that we've reached a moment in which some lawmakers would decide to stick up for their institution rather than their party. There have been a number of occasions over the past almost year and a half where lawmakers in Congress have fairly explicitly abrogated their own power, given up their own power to the president. But there seems to be concern about the idea that the president, for example, could come up with a $1.776 billion settlement in a lawsuit against himself and he's coming up with taxpayer dollars to pay to his political supporters - potentially even those who attacked the Capitol - and Congress hasn't voted on that money. That seems to bother some lawmakers.
FLAKE: Well, I mean, I've been hoping for the Senate to exercise its institutional prerogatives for a while, so it doesn't seem to be that. The Republicans have been pretty supine when it comes to exercising authority. In this case, however, that is just so wholly unpopular - to have a fund to reward your political allies - that no Republican wanted to be anywhere near it. They're - they've been running from it. So this happens to, you know, really affect them politically themselves. And I think a lot of Republicans are looking at a time it's almost certain Republicans will lose the House, and Democrats will have subpoena power and everything else that comes with it. And I don't think anybody wants to be on the wrong side of this argument with this fund.
INSKEEP: You're coming to us from Provo, Utah. Utah's a fairly conservative state. I'm sure you talk with a lot of people there. What do you hear about the president's ballroom?
FLAKE: You know, I think a lot of people look at it as the same as, you know, Mexico will build this wall. I think everybody kind of knew that it wasn't going to happen, that this is going to be done with private funds. And I think people aren't - don't have a problem with a ballroom if you go through the right steps. But this is just too much, the way the president has done a number of things, and it's just kind of a bridge too far.
INSKEEP: Rahm Emanuel, President Obama's former chief of staff, among many other things - a guy with whom I'm sure you disagree politically on many issues - has said he thinks this fall's election will be decided not merely on the economy but also on corruption. Do you think he's right about that?
FLAKE: He has a point. I've been talking to and hearing him say this. And what it is, is, I mean, Americans are hurting out there, particularly gas prices and inflation. And when that is coupled with you see the president's family and friends doing very well, that just - that has some political potency. So Rahm is right about that.
INSKEEP: Ambassador Flake, it's a pleasure to talk with you again. Thank you so much.
FLAKE: Great to talk to you, Steve.
INSKEEP: Jeff Flake is a former ambassador and former Republican senator from Arizona. And we will note that we have invited a number of sitting Republican lawmakers to join us on this program, and that offer still stands. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
